Ask Two Cat Kitchen

[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the Two Cat Kitchen podcast. Thanks very much for listening. Today we have a very special episode. It's our first ever Ask Two Cat Kitchen show.

[00:00:12] The Two Cat research team has been hard at work getting to the bottom of two listener-submitted queries.

[00:00:19] First up, the age-old question, who invented rock and roll?

[00:00:23] We're joined by music guru and TCK alum Scott Doggett, who gives us the definitive word on the topic.

[00:00:32] There was Wild Bill Moore and Rock and Roll, the song Rock and Roll. I mean, these are all songs.

[00:00:37] Now, the question I have for you is, why is Rocket 88 the first rock and roll song?

[00:00:43] Yeah, no idea.

[00:00:45] Next, we dive into the history of apple pie.

[00:00:47] Anyway, Sarah Grady helps us figure it all out and provides some unique insights into life in general.

[00:00:54] There are so many dancing skeleton songs out there.

[00:00:58] As always, we have some new songs, and this week, we're featuring a video recipe,

[00:01:04] Fantastic Apple Pie with Aria and Bryce.

[00:01:08] Thanks again for listening. Now here's the show.

[00:01:11] Two Cat Kitchen

[00:01:13] It's time for us to pitch in

[00:01:16] And start another Two Cat Show

[00:01:18] Down at the Two Cat Kitchen

[00:01:21] We're starting on a mission

[00:01:23] To put you in the culinary know

[00:01:26] You've got the finest recipes

[00:01:29] You ever will find

[00:01:31] Guaranteed to show you

[00:01:33] All a mighty fine time

[00:01:35] Here at the Two Cat Kitchen

[00:01:37] Time for a new edition of the Culinary Two Cat Show

[00:01:43] The Two Cat Show

[00:01:52] Welcome to the Two Cat Kitchen, the show that mixes musical mayhem with culinary calamity.

[00:01:57] Sarah Grady is here to help with the mixing.

[00:01:59] Keeping it real.

[00:02:00] Oh yeah.

[00:02:01] Each episode features new songs, a brand new recipe, and a special guest.

[00:02:08] And for this episode, our special guest is going to be Scott Doggett.

[00:02:13] And this is actually a different episode.

[00:02:16] It's our first ever Ask Two Cat Kitchen, where we tackle listener-submitted questions.

[00:02:24] And today, we have two questions relating to rock and roll and apple pie.

[00:02:30] Two very American questions.

[00:02:32] Absolutely.

[00:02:33] And Scott is going to take a shot at the first question.

[00:02:37] And Sarah and I will actually take a shot at the second question a little bit later on.

[00:02:43] And our recipe for this episode is going to be all-American apple pie from the kitchen of Aria and Bryce.

[00:02:51] But before we get to all that, Sarah, have you heard from the coconuts?

[00:02:56] They're not around this month.

[00:02:57] Yeah.

[00:02:58] Yeah.

[00:02:58] They are haunting a corn maze dressed as dancing skeletons.

[00:03:04] There are so many dancing skeleton songs out there.

[00:03:08] Is that right?

[00:03:09] Yeah.

[00:03:09] I don't know if I'm familiar.

[00:03:10] Yeah.

[00:03:11] The dancing skeleton songs.

[00:03:13] Mostly about rattling bones and being double-jointed and breaking it down.

[00:03:19] Breaking it down.

[00:03:20] Breaking it down.

[00:03:21] I like it.

[00:03:23] Well, that's great to know.

[00:03:24] I mean, and those songs have kind of a limited mileage to them, I guess, because you're only

[00:03:28] going to listen to them around Halloween, right?

[00:03:30] Or do you listen to them all year round?

[00:03:32] Who knows?

[00:03:32] Depends on how much you like skeletons, but it certainly is keeping marimba players in business.

[00:03:38] That's a good point.

[00:03:39] All right.

[00:03:40] Well, no coconuts this month.

[00:03:42] But we do have our first musical number coming up.

[00:03:45] And this is a song back from the archives by The Cartwrights called Rundown.

[00:04:03] Rundown.

[00:04:05] Another working week's done.

[00:04:08] Run me to the ground.

[00:04:12] Hometowns.

[00:04:14] It's sure enough hard to up and get yourself around.

[00:04:20] Yeah, we're the same old folks and the same bad jokes.

[00:04:24] Same old car for sale outside of town.

[00:04:29] Went too much money down.

[00:04:35] Same old bar right down my street.

[00:04:38] Same old boys inside day after day.

[00:04:45] But I guess I wouldn't have to sit my portrait fleets.

[00:05:19] Welcome back to the 2Cat Kitchen.

[00:07:40] And Scott Doggett is here with us.

[00:07:42] Thanks for joining us, Scott.

[00:07:43] Because we have a mission to respond to the listener requests.

[00:07:47] And we got a question.

[00:07:49] A listener question.

[00:07:50] Bring it.

[00:07:50] Okay.

[00:07:51] So it's from Sammy Bott from Saigon.

[00:07:53] Oh, Sammy.

[00:07:54] And his question is, who invented rock and roll?

[00:07:58] And yo, your podcast sucks.

[00:08:04] Thank you, Sammy, for that.

[00:08:06] A good question, but a bad attitude this kid has.

[00:08:09] Well, I don't know.

[00:08:09] Maybe he hasn't listened to it.

[00:08:11] I guess he has if he came up with that.

[00:08:12] But anyway, yeah.

[00:08:14] So is Saigon in New Jersey?

[00:08:16] Yeah, it is.

[00:08:17] Yeah.

[00:08:17] Okay.

[00:08:17] That's what I thought.

[00:08:18] Try it on the dark one.

[00:08:19] So this is like the question that a lot of people ask.

[00:08:22] When did rock and roll begin?

[00:08:23] You know, because everybody has their opinion.

[00:08:27] What's your opinion?

[00:08:28] I don't know.

[00:08:29] Who said they coined the phrase?

[00:08:31] Did Alan Freed say he coined the phrase rock and roll?

[00:08:34] I'm not sure who, but I mean, it's been in the...

[00:08:37] It seemed to be in the music throughout the 40s, certainly.

[00:08:40] Right?

[00:08:40] There were guys like Wynoni Harris.

[00:08:42] Yeah.

[00:08:42] All she wants to do is rock and good rockin' tonight and all that stuff.

[00:08:45] Yeah.

[00:08:45] And rockin' was sex, kind of.

[00:08:48] Yeah, exactly.

[00:08:48] Maybe in the hurry behind the barn.

[00:08:50] You know, it's good rockin' tonight kind of stuff.

[00:08:52] Yeah.

[00:08:52] I accidentally looked up the origin of rock and roll, and I got an article on the origin

[00:08:57] of the word rock and roll.

[00:08:59] Yeah.

[00:08:59] And it was like a sexual thing.

[00:09:01] Yeah, totally.

[00:09:01] From the 20s or something like that.

[00:09:02] Yeah, it could be.

[00:09:03] I'm sure it goes way back.

[00:09:04] But all that sort of jump blues kind of stuff, like there was the blues, but then all that

[00:09:08] jump blues kind of like that, almost like the Cab Calloways and the Wynoni Harris and

[00:09:12] all those guys.

[00:09:13] And it's sort of, for me, and it also sort of happened with guys like Bob Wills.

[00:09:18] And even, you know, they sort of had like that, they had like that Texas swing, had a little

[00:09:21] bit of a rock and roll vibe to it a little bit.

[00:09:23] You know, it swung.

[00:09:24] Yeah.

[00:09:25] And rock and roll was kind of a swing, but I don't know, with a country backbeat on it.

[00:09:29] I'm not sure exactly.

[00:09:31] Yeah.

[00:09:32] But definitely Jackie Bresden.

[00:09:34] Bresden?

[00:09:34] Bresden?

[00:09:35] Bresden?

[00:09:35] Jackie Breslin.

[00:09:37] He did a song called Rocket 88.

[00:09:39] And a lot of, you know, journalists will say that was the first real rock and roll song.

[00:09:44] And Ike Turner was the guitarist on that.

[00:09:47] Wow.

[00:09:48] I think it was, I want to say it's like 52 or 53.

[00:09:51] Yeah.

[00:09:51] Was when that came out.

[00:09:52] Yeah.

[00:09:52] And that's funny because, and then, you know, of course, what I've heard, the classic is that,

[00:10:00] you know, it was the early 50s, right?

[00:10:02] Yeah.

[00:10:03] And it was Bill Haley and the Comets.

[00:10:05] Right.

[00:10:05] And Elvis were the beginning of rock and roll.

[00:10:08] But Elvis is four years after.

[00:10:11] Yeah, that's true.

[00:10:12] And also Elvis was covering all those like jump blues numbers from the 40s, you know,

[00:10:20] at being the beginning anyway.

[00:10:21] Yeah.

[00:10:22] Like, well, yeah.

[00:10:22] He's like Big Mama Thornton and Arthur Crudup and those guys.

[00:10:26] Like they were, so it was really sort of a, sort of a rural black blues with a little

[00:10:31] bit more of a, I don't know, it had some, it definitely had some jump to it.

[00:10:35] Yeah.

[00:10:36] You know, maybe a little gospel meets country meets blues kind of thing.

[00:10:39] Yeah.

[00:10:39] So the Rocket 88 was, was that late 40s or early 50s?

[00:10:42] I want to say it was 52.

[00:10:44] And Ike Turner played guitar.

[00:10:45] I didn't know that.

[00:10:46] Jackie Bresden.

[00:10:47] Wow.

[00:10:48] I can't remember.

[00:10:48] I think it might be something more to his name, like Jackie Bresden and the somethings.

[00:10:53] Yeah.

[00:10:53] So 1951 was Rocket 88.

[00:10:56] Yeah.

[00:10:56] And, yeah, so that, but there are also a lot of, people have pointed to some songs in the

[00:11:03] 40s.

[00:11:04] Yeah.

[00:11:05] Where like the first, this is the first rock and roll song.

[00:11:09] And Memphis Slim, for example.

[00:11:15] Yeah.

[00:11:15] Yeah.

[00:11:15] He did that Rockin' This House.

[00:11:17] Yeah.

[00:11:18] With Willie Dixon playing bass.

[00:11:19] Yeah.

[00:11:20] That sounds like rock and roll.

[00:11:21] Yeah.

[00:11:22] Yeah.

[00:11:22] And then there was Wild Bill Moore and Rock and Roll, the song Rock and Roll.

[00:11:28] I mean, these are all songs.

[00:11:29] Now, I don't, the question I have for you is, why are these all, like, why is Rocket 88

[00:11:33] the first rock and roll song?

[00:11:35] Yeah.

[00:11:35] No idea.

[00:11:36] No idea.

[00:11:37] It's like somebody just trying to make a claim to fame or something.

[00:11:39] I mean, it was on Chess Records.

[00:11:41] So whether the Chess Brothers had something to do with it, because they were all, you know,

[00:11:44] they had Muddy and they had all the Howlin' and all those guys up there in Chicago.

[00:11:48] Yeah.

[00:11:49] They're all coming up from the Delta, but who knows?

[00:11:52] Yeah.

[00:11:53] And then-

[00:11:53] Definitely came up the Mississippi.

[00:11:56] It was a Southern thing.

[00:11:57] Yeah.

[00:11:58] Totally.

[00:11:58] Yeah.

[00:11:58] That was the other thing I picked up on, was that that was the case.

[00:12:03] And yeah.

[00:12:04] And there was also something called Country Boogie, a style.

[00:12:10] Yeah.

[00:12:10] Have you heard of that?

[00:12:11] Not, no.

[00:12:12] Not no.

[00:12:14] Just now.

[00:12:15] Because I was thinking that we could talk a little bit about, like, because, you know,

[00:12:19] all these things came together.

[00:12:21] Boogie Woogie, you know, R&B, that predated rock and roll, really.

[00:12:27] Right.

[00:12:27] But they kind of came together.

[00:12:29] And then one of the things that people say contributed to it was Country Boogie.

[00:12:34] And there were definitely country influences.

[00:12:35] You mentioned Bob Wills.

[00:12:38] Yeah.

[00:12:38] But what are some of the other country artists that kind of kicked off that maybe fed into that?

[00:12:43] Do you have any thoughts on that?

[00:12:45] Well, like, there were country guys that sort of got folded into rockabilly.

[00:12:50] Like, Conway Twitty started off as a rockabilly guy.

[00:12:53] As far as country guys leading into rock, though.

[00:12:57] Well, there's always Johnny Cash, I suppose, huh?

[00:12:59] Yeah.

[00:13:00] Yeah.

[00:13:00] Sort of.

[00:13:01] Yeah.

[00:13:01] But that was all that by 55, 56.

[00:13:04] Yeah.

[00:13:04] Later on.

[00:13:05] You know, and that was all the Sun Sound.

[00:13:06] And he had the slap back.

[00:13:07] And he had his stable of Jerry Lee and Carl Perkins.

[00:13:13] Yeah.

[00:13:13] Yeah.

[00:13:14] What about guys like, you know, Ernest Tubb and...

[00:13:19] They were really like honky tonk guys, right?

[00:13:21] Honky tonk.

[00:13:22] Well, that was one of the things that kind of fed into rock and roll, I thought.

[00:13:26] Kind of.

[00:13:27] I mean, there was something...

[00:13:28] I mean, but you wouldn't call Hank William...

[00:13:30] Well, you wouldn't call Hank Williams honky tonk.

[00:13:32] But certainly he's like the king of the hillbilly Shakespeare.

[00:13:35] Right.

[00:13:36] You know?

[00:13:36] Yeah.

[00:13:37] Yeah.

[00:13:38] Yeah, guys like Hank Thompson.

[00:13:39] I mean, they had definitely fun, like, raucous little tunes.

[00:13:42] And those...

[00:13:43] And they were pre-rock and roll kind of, weren't they?

[00:13:45] Yeah.

[00:13:45] Even Tennessee Ernie Ford was 16 tons.

[00:13:47] I mean, not that that was a rock song per se, but...

[00:13:51] Yeah.

[00:13:51] There's a song...

[00:13:52] I won't be able to think of it, but it's...

[00:13:54] I think it's K-Star and Tennessee Ernie Ford.

[00:13:58] And it's a song...

[00:13:59] It's on my phone.

[00:14:00] It's the first song that ever had a Fender guitar on it.

[00:14:04] Like, they'd given a prototype to Jimmy...

[00:14:06] To Speedy...

[00:14:08] Not Speedy West.

[00:14:08] To Jimmy Bryant.

[00:14:10] Oh, okay.

[00:14:10] And Speedy West and Jimmy Bryant played on this session.

[00:14:12] It's the first recording you ever heard, like, a broadcaster...

[00:14:15] Yeah.

[00:14:16] ...played on it.

[00:14:16] It's kind of cool.

[00:14:17] Wow.

[00:14:18] But that's, you know, K-Star and Tennessee Ernie Ford, so not really rock and roll.

[00:14:22] Yeah.

[00:14:22] And that's interesting you mentioned that, too, because another thing I picked up on

[00:14:25] was that people were saying that when rock and roll started, you know, whenever it started,

[00:14:29] probably early 50s, right?

[00:14:31] Yeah.

[00:14:31] That was about the time...

[00:14:32] There was a bunch of technology changes about then.

[00:14:34] Yeah.

[00:14:35] For example, like you mentioned, Fender guitars, they came out about then.

[00:14:38] Electric guitars.

[00:14:39] Solid body.

[00:14:40] Yeah.

[00:14:40] Yeah, right.

[00:14:41] Solid body electrics.

[00:14:42] Yeah.

[00:14:43] And then, you know, amps kind of...

[00:14:46] Amplifiers, guitar amps, kind of dialed up a little bit around that time.

[00:14:50] Yeah, so they could be heard in the orchestra.

[00:14:52] Yeah.

[00:14:52] Right.

[00:14:52] And the other thing that they pointed out was that, you know, right around that time,

[00:14:56] early 50s, they started getting 45s, you know, 45 RPM records as opposed to the 78s, you

[00:15:03] know?

[00:15:03] Right.

[00:15:04] And that was like a big thing that it was capitalized on.

[00:15:09] And also, another thing they mentioned is that the quality of, like, mics in the studio

[00:15:15] took off.

[00:15:16] Yeah.

[00:15:16] At that time.

[00:15:17] So, you know, all these things kind of came together.

[00:15:21] Yeah.

[00:15:21] And then you had R&B going, you had Boogie Woogie.

[00:15:25] We also had, you know, from sort of a social standpoint, it was post-war.

[00:15:29] So, you had baby boomers.

[00:15:30] You had all these kids.

[00:15:31] Yeah.

[00:15:32] Right?

[00:15:32] And they're sort of like looking for something new.

[00:15:35] Like, they weren't into the doom and gloom of the past generation.

[00:15:37] They wanted to try something different.

[00:15:39] So, there was like, you know, there was Marlon Brando and there was James Dean and this

[00:15:43] sort of, there was this whole sort of slow rebellion that sort of, you know, and then

[00:15:46] there was birth control pills.

[00:15:47] And there's like this whole sort of arc of youth rebellion and finding their own voice.

[00:15:53] And rock and roll really, I think like, or whatever version was slowly becoming rock

[00:15:58] and roll, gave them something new that their parents, that they consider rebel against.

[00:16:02] It wasn't ballroom dancing.

[00:16:04] It was kind of crazy.

[00:16:05] Yeah.

[00:16:06] Yeah.

[00:16:06] You know?

[00:16:07] That makes a lot of sense.

[00:16:08] Yeah.

[00:16:09] So, that's sort of part of it too.

[00:16:10] Yeah.

[00:16:10] And so, and then the other thing that came about about that time, I guess, was, you know,

[00:16:15] some label, record labels were developed.

[00:16:19] Independent labels all over the place.

[00:16:21] Yeah.

[00:16:21] But the big ones like Atlantic.

[00:16:23] Yeah.

[00:16:24] And Sun Records and Chess, you know?

[00:16:27] Yeah, yeah.

[00:16:28] They became, kind of bridged the gap between R&B and the white audiences.

[00:16:33] Yeah.

[00:16:33] Well, they were buying up all those little labels too or like distributing them.

[00:16:36] I mean, they were just a zillion little broadside label and, you know, all these little, like

[00:16:41] you get old 45s and just like, they're amazing, the labels.

[00:16:44] Yeah.

[00:16:45] But it's almost, you know.

[00:16:46] It was regional too, right?

[00:16:48] Yeah.

[00:16:48] Like you could have a hit in Memphis and nobody had ever heard of you in Chicago or Florida

[00:16:51] or New York or something like that too.

[00:16:53] You know?

[00:16:55] Yeah.

[00:16:56] And you mentioned Hank Williams too because his song, Move It On Over, you know?

[00:17:01] Yeah.

[00:17:01] That's, a lot of people say that's the first rock and roll song.

[00:17:04] Yeah.

[00:17:04] But my question is, why is that the first rock and roll song?

[00:17:08] I mean, I have sung that song.

[00:17:09] I know.

[00:17:10] You must be able to apply it probably to like a John Philip Seuss song if you tried hard

[00:17:13] enough, you know?

[00:17:15] I don't know.

[00:17:16] You know, certainly, you know, like Set the Woods On Fire, that seems like a good rock

[00:17:19] and roll tune.

[00:17:20] You know?

[00:17:20] I would, you know, who knows?

[00:17:22] That's, you know, Hank.

[00:17:23] And the rockabilly stuff kind of really put, like, connected the two, right?

[00:17:27] Where you got guys like Gene Vincent and the rock and roll trio and all those sort of guys

[00:17:32] that were sort of, like, making it more, they were making it crazy.

[00:17:36] Yeah.

[00:17:36] Yeah.

[00:17:37] That's, yeah.

[00:17:38] And then, so where did rockabilly, the name, come from, right?

[00:17:41] Yeah.

[00:17:41] Yeah.

[00:17:42] Well, it's obviously rock and roll and hillbilly music, right?

[00:17:44] Right.

[00:17:44] That's it.

[00:17:45] Yeah.

[00:17:45] So what's the hillbilly part of it, you know?

[00:17:48] I mean, yeah.

[00:17:50] Yeah.

[00:17:51] I'm not sure necessarily.

[00:17:52] I mean, just, I mean, certainly if you're Johnny Burnett and you're recording wherever he

[00:17:56] recorded, not in Memphis, then I wouldn't call this self hillbilly, but sort of if you're

[00:18:00] at Sun Records, that could be hillbilly, right?

[00:18:03] And, you know, Sam Phillips, he had an incredible R&B roster before Elvis came along.

[00:18:10] Yeah.

[00:18:10] Right?

[00:18:11] So we had all these great musicians and, you know, hardcore, like, Delta Blues stuff happening.

[00:18:16] Right.

[00:18:17] Yeah.

[00:18:18] Yeah.

[00:18:18] I guess it kind of all just melted together.

[00:18:20] You know, talking about rockabilly, somebody mentioned it to me that a guy named Billy Flag

[00:18:27] or Bill Flag, have you heard that name?

[00:18:29] He was from Connecticut.

[00:18:30] And he was the first guy in the mid-50s to coin the phrase rockabilly.

[00:18:36] That's what they said.

[00:18:37] Really?

[00:18:37] Yeah.

[00:18:38] And I actually looked up some of his stuff on the YouTube, you know?

[00:18:43] And his song, he has got, you know, this Bill, I guess it's Bill Flag.

[00:18:48] Yeah.

[00:18:48] And I forget the name of his band, but he's got some songs.

[00:18:52] One of them's called Go Cat Go.

[00:18:53] I thought it would be a good one for the podcast, you know?

[00:18:55] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:18:56] But his songs, they don't sound anything like rockabilly.

[00:18:59] Right.

[00:18:59] They're really slow or slower.

[00:19:01] And they're sedate.

[00:19:03] And there's no, like, slapping bass or anything.

[00:19:06] Yeah.

[00:19:06] It's like, ah.

[00:19:07] I mean, here's the guy that supposedly invented the phrase, but it doesn't really sound like

[00:19:11] rockabilly like you're used to hearing.

[00:19:13] Right.

[00:19:15] And anyway, so that was interesting.

[00:19:18] But yeah, I remember when I started this, I was in a band in Washington, D.C. like in 1980.

[00:19:23] And we called our music Crankabilly.

[00:19:26] And it was kind of, but you know, it was like that time, like, it seems like every band I've

[00:19:31] been in, like with You With a Cart Rice, like we just, we just like went headfirst into like

[00:19:35] old country music.

[00:19:36] Yeah, yeah.

[00:19:36] It's a great way to learn stuff.

[00:19:37] If you're in a band that's demanding that genre, then you can just go find out all this

[00:19:41] stuff.

[00:19:41] Right.

[00:19:42] In 1980, like I just got all into rockabilly.

[00:19:45] And, you know, you sort of found these cool, cool guys.

[00:19:47] And, you know, like Cliff Gallup was Gene Vince's guitarist.

[00:19:50] And he was freaking amazing.

[00:19:52] Yeah.

[00:19:52] He was just great.

[00:19:53] There's a lot of great stuff that people have lost track of, I think, for a lot of years.

[00:20:12] Another thing that fed into rock, I think, was like gospel, like shout gospel or whatever.

[00:20:22] And Sister Rosetta Thorpe.

[00:20:24] Yeah, yeah.

[00:20:25] Or Thorpe, right?

[00:20:26] I'm sorry.

[00:20:26] And she's way earlier, too.

[00:20:28] She's like in the 30s and 40s.

[00:20:30] Yeah, Sister Rosetta Thorpe.

[00:20:32] Yeah.

[00:20:32] Yeah.

[00:20:33] Kick-ass guitarist.

[00:20:34] Oh, absolutely.

[00:20:35] And unbelievable.

[00:20:36] I mean, she did gospel music, really.

[00:20:38] She was, you know, in that kind of music.

[00:20:40] Well, she did gospel and secular.

[00:20:42] She was in conflict.

[00:20:44] Yeah.

[00:20:45] So like Little Richard later in life, right?

[00:20:46] Like Little Richard was rock and roll.

[00:20:48] Then he had to go follow the Lord.

[00:20:50] And then he'd come back to rock and roll.

[00:20:51] Yeah, yeah.

[00:20:52] Yeah.

[00:20:53] Yeah.

[00:20:53] Yeah.

[00:20:53] And she was awesome.

[00:20:54] I mean, she did a version of Up Above My Head is like a gospel song.

[00:21:00] And she was like ripping guitar breaks on it.

[00:21:02] Yeah.

[00:21:02] In the middle of the church.

[00:21:04] You know, it was great.

[00:21:05] It was so great.

[00:21:06] Yeah.

[00:21:06] And I saw this quote from Chuck Berry.

[00:21:10] You know, Chuck Berry, who's like synonymous with rock and roll, really, when you come right

[00:21:14] down to it.

[00:21:15] Yeah.

[00:21:15] And he basically said, my career was one long Sister Rosetta Tharp impression.

[00:21:23] Impersonation.

[00:21:25] That's pretty odd.

[00:21:26] That's humble of him.

[00:21:27] Yeah.

[00:21:27] He didn't seem like a humble guy.

[00:21:28] That's pretty nice that he'd say something like that.

[00:21:30] Yeah.

[00:21:30] It's crazy.

[00:21:31] Yeah.

[00:21:31] The gospel factor was huge, right?

[00:21:33] Yeah.

[00:21:33] I think so.

[00:21:33] And even like, you know, like the way Presley had like the Jordanaires as his background singers

[00:21:37] and stuff.

[00:21:38] Oh, yeah, yeah.

[00:21:39] You know, Rocking My Soul in the Bosom of Abraham and all that stuff.

[00:21:41] There was a lot of that stuff going on.

[00:21:44] And it definitely had an R&B rock and roll flavor to it.

[00:21:49] So the church is definitely a part of the, you know, of the stew.

[00:21:53] Yeah.

[00:21:54] Yeah.

[00:21:54] And especially the early black Pentecostal church, which you don't hear.

[00:21:59] Well, the call and response stuff, right?

[00:22:01] Yeah.

[00:22:01] You don't hear a lot about it.

[00:22:02] That's in the cotton fields, right?

[00:22:04] Call and response.

[00:22:04] Yeah.

[00:22:05] Rock and roll.

[00:22:05] You say a line, then you say a line again, then you say it again.

[00:22:08] Then, you know, it's just like, get out of this house.

[00:22:10] Stop all that yakety yak.

[00:22:11] Get out of this house.

[00:22:12] Stop all that yakety yak.

[00:22:14] Going in the kitchen, don't want no talking back.

[00:22:17] It's a verse.

[00:22:18] Okay.

[00:22:19] You're going to hear it first.

[00:22:21] So, yeah, I found some other people's ideas of the first rock and roll song.

[00:22:25] Okay.

[00:22:25] Okay.

[00:22:26] This could be Sister Rosetta Tharp.

[00:22:29] Strange Things Happen Every Day.

[00:22:31] Wow.

[00:22:31] Have you heard that?

[00:22:32] No.

[00:22:32] No.

[00:22:32] Oh, yeah.

[00:22:33] I know that song.

[00:22:34] I don't know if I know her version.

[00:22:36] It's a great title.

[00:22:38] I never heard it.

[00:22:39] Arthur Crudup.

[00:22:40] That's All Right.

[00:22:41] Yeah.

[00:22:41] And that's what Elvis covered, right?

[00:22:43] Yeah.

[00:22:44] Sounds like Arthur Crudup earlier.

[00:22:45] Him and Big Mama Thornton.

[00:22:46] Yeah.

[00:22:46] Hank Williams, Moving On Over.

[00:22:48] We already talked about that.

[00:22:49] Fats Domino, The Fat Man.

[00:22:51] Oh, yeah.

[00:22:51] That was the first rock and roll record.

[00:22:52] I know.

[00:22:53] But to me, and I guess it was much further.

[00:22:56] He was earlier than Elvis, I guess.

[00:22:58] When was Fats Domino?

[00:22:59] Because I picture him in that whole genre when it all sort of happened in the mid-50s.

[00:23:03] I see him as part of that.

[00:23:04] He was the New Orleans version.

[00:23:05] I think.

[00:23:05] Oh, so he's earlier than that?

[00:23:07] I think so.

[00:23:07] Yeah.

[00:23:08] No, it's certainly Fats Domino.

[00:23:09] It might have been 48 or 49.

[00:23:11] I don't know.

[00:23:11] New Orleans definitely had its own thing going on.

[00:23:14] What's the guy named?

[00:23:17] Joey Ligdon?

[00:23:19] I can't think of his name.

[00:23:20] But New Orleans had a whole other scene going on.

[00:23:23] It was great.

[00:23:24] Yeah.

[00:23:25] Which also fed into it, I guess.

[00:23:26] Yeah.

[00:23:27] And then Jimmy Preston in Rock the Joint.

[00:23:30] And I listened to a lot of these.

[00:23:31] Maybe we'll put them up on our song list, too.

[00:23:33] Yeah, yeah.

[00:23:33] Totally.

[00:23:34] But a lot of them don't sound like rock and roll to me.

[00:23:36] And it's like, how do they get off saying that these are the first rock songs?

[00:23:39] But, you know, I mean, definitely the R&B songs from the 40s.

[00:23:43] I can see those.

[00:23:44] They sound like rock to me.

[00:23:45] Yeah.

[00:23:46] I mean, I actually got turned on by a...

[00:23:51] This guy's when I was living in Boston.

[00:23:52] This guy turned me on to Wynoni Harris.

[00:23:54] Yeah.

[00:23:55] I was just like, holy crap, this stuff is so good.

[00:23:56] And I brought it home.

[00:23:57] My dad goes, what are you playing?

[00:23:59] He goes, this is what I used to listen to when he was in college.

[00:24:02] That was like his 40s music.

[00:24:03] I was listening to Good Rockin' Tonight and Good Morning Judge and Whiskey and all those things.

[00:24:07] Yeah.

[00:24:08] They're great songs.

[00:24:09] Yeah, that's crazy.

[00:24:10] And, you know, so another thing, just to wrap up our answer to Sammy's question here.

[00:24:20] Oh, yes.

[00:24:21] Sammy.

[00:24:21] Remember Sammy?

[00:24:22] But anyway, I also heard a lot of people say that rock and roll, the end of rock and roll was 1958.

[00:24:28] When Elvis got drafted?

[00:24:30] Elvis got drafted.

[00:24:31] Wait a minute.

[00:24:32] Between Buddy, they got rid of it pretty fast.

[00:24:35] Yeah, because Elvis got drafted.

[00:24:38] Buddy's plane went down.

[00:24:40] Yeah, Lou Richard retired to go into the ministry, right?

[00:24:44] And then-

[00:24:44] Jerry Lee married his cousin.

[00:24:45] Jerry Lee Lewis married his 13-year-old cousin.

[00:24:49] Right.

[00:24:49] And then, you know, Buddy Holly, Big Bopper, Richie Valens died.

[00:24:54] Eddie Cochran died.

[00:24:55] He died in a car car.

[00:24:55] Eddie Cochran.

[00:24:56] He busted up his leg pretty bad.

[00:24:58] Yeah, and then the arrest of Chuck Berry, which I-

[00:25:01] Oh, yeah.

[00:25:02] For the Mann Act, crossing state lines with a minor.

[00:25:05] Yeah.

[00:25:06] Yeah.

[00:25:07] And then the Paola scandal.

[00:25:09] Yeah.

[00:25:10] Which the aforementioned Alan Frieder, I guess, was a part of.

[00:25:13] Which was just saying, I didn't know about that.

[00:25:16] Yeah, it's business as usual, right?

[00:25:18] I know.

[00:25:19] It just seemed like a really bad deal.

[00:25:20] But, you know, I know there was a lot of stuff going on back then with the early-

[00:25:25] Particularly with the R&B artists when they were crossing over into rock and being picked up by, you know, some of the white radio stations.

[00:25:31] Yeah.

[00:25:32] And picked up by the white agents and they were just screwing them over left and right.

[00:25:36] And, you know, Chuck Berry got really screwed by that, right?

[00:25:39] Yeah.

[00:25:40] But Paola was like gerrymandering for music.

[00:25:43] Yeah.

[00:25:43] It was like they made their own little border to their own rules.

[00:25:46] Yeah.

[00:25:46] And they basically laid down a lot of money to get their stuff played.

[00:25:49] Yeah.

[00:25:50] So rock and roll was a short-lived phenomena.

[00:25:52] It was.

[00:25:53] But it still goes on today.

[00:25:55] It goes on.

[00:25:55] To some extent.

[00:25:57] I mean, God, there's songs by Les Paul that are like rock and roll, right?

[00:26:02] I mean, there's so many things that are just going on forever.

[00:26:04] The way Chet Atkins-

[00:26:04] I mean, what was going on?

[00:26:06] I mean, just sort of-

[00:26:06] I don't know.

[00:26:07] There's a million ways to skin this cat.

[00:26:09] Exactly.

[00:26:10] Yeah.

[00:26:10] You know, but it certainly didn't start with Elvis.

[00:26:12] That's for sure.

[00:26:14] Although, on a mass level, that is the birth of rock and roll.

[00:26:18] Yeah.

[00:26:19] And, you know, all right.

[00:26:21] So let me write a lot, a few more names here.

[00:26:24] Okay.

[00:26:24] We got Mr. Rock and Roll, Alan Freed.

[00:26:27] Yes.

[00:26:27] Chuck Berry, Laverne Baker.

[00:26:30] Yeah.

[00:26:31] Clyde McFatter.

[00:26:33] Yep.

[00:26:34] Little Richard.

[00:26:37] Ferlin Husky.

[00:26:38] Ferlin Husky.

[00:26:39] There's a country guy.

[00:26:41] The Moon Glows.

[00:26:42] Yeah.

[00:26:43] Shea Coogan.

[00:26:45] Shea Coogan.

[00:26:46] Frankie Lyman.

[00:26:47] And then there's Rocky Graziano.

[00:26:49] Teddy Randazzo.

[00:26:51] Lionel Hampton.

[00:26:51] And Louis O'Brien.

[00:26:52] What are they doing there?

[00:26:53] I don't know.

[00:26:54] Lionel Hampton.

[00:26:54] And Lionel Hampton.

[00:26:55] What was off of the movie?

[00:26:56] Mr. Rock and Roll.

[00:26:58] So was that a movie?

[00:26:59] So we're in Scott's studio here, and he's got a poster on the wall that says,

[00:27:03] Mr. Rock and Roll.

[00:27:04] That was a movie.

[00:27:05] Yeah, yeah.

[00:27:05] And all these people, the people that we just listed, were in the movie.

[00:27:08] Joe Turner.

[00:27:09] He was the big one.

[00:27:10] Yeah.

[00:27:11] Right?

[00:27:12] He had Joe Turner.

[00:27:13] He was good.

[00:27:14] Maybe that's the answer to the question right there.

[00:27:16] I think of early Ray Charles and stuff.

[00:27:17] He was making rock and roll records like in the early 50s too, right?

[00:27:21] Absolutely.

[00:27:21] Yeah, I think so.

[00:27:22] Yeah.

[00:27:23] Before he was even on Atlantic.

[00:27:25] He was on another label for Atlantic.

[00:27:26] I can't think of it.

[00:27:28] All right.

[00:27:28] We're going to wrap this up.

[00:27:29] We'll be right back here in the Two Cat Kitchen.

[00:27:32] Rock!

[00:27:33] We have a follow-up to our answer to the question, who invented rock and roll?

[00:27:38] We have a YouTube playlist, Sarah.

[00:27:39] And it's called Early Rock and Roll.

[00:27:42] It's on our Two Cat Kitchen YouTube channel.

[00:27:44] So we'd like to suggest our listeners take a gander over at that, check out our playlist,

[00:27:51] and Scott and I will have a little bit of commentary that's incorporated with it.

[00:27:56] That sounds really exciting.

[00:27:57] Yeah, we can't wait.

[00:27:58] So please check out our YouTube channel, Two Cat Kitchen, and click on the early rock

[00:28:05] and roll music playlist and check it out.

[00:28:09] We'll be right back here at the Two Cat Kitchen.

[00:28:28] We're back, and we're going to get to our next listener-submitted question in just a moment.

[00:28:33] But first, we have another song.

[00:28:36] It's The Cartwrights with Whenever You're Near.

[00:28:39] I'm back with Sarah Grady, and it's time to tackle our next listener-submitted question.

[00:32:13] Are you ready, Sarah?

[00:32:14] I'm very ready.

[00:32:16] All right.

[00:32:16] Here we go.

[00:32:17] It comes from Jonathan Seed from Ypsilanti, who asks,

[00:32:21] When did apple pie first come about?

[00:32:24] I mean, like, who did it?

[00:32:28] Who did it?

[00:32:28] Who done it?

[00:32:29] Who did it?

[00:32:30] Okay, well, I think we understand your question, Jonathan.

[00:32:33] Thank you for submitting that.

[00:32:35] But how did apple pie begin?

[00:32:37] Well, Sarah, do you have any insights into apple pie?

[00:32:40] This is an interesting question.

[00:32:42] Well, I grew up in an apple-producing town.

[00:32:46] No kidding.

[00:32:47] Yeah.

[00:32:48] At one point in time, in the early 40s, it produced more apples than any other town in Massachusetts,

[00:32:56] and had 55 different orchards.

[00:32:59] 55?

[00:33:00] Yeah.

[00:33:00] What town is that?

[00:33:01] That's Harvard, Massachusetts.

[00:33:02] Harvard, Massachusetts.

[00:33:04] Wow.

[00:33:04] Yeah.

[00:33:04] Yeah, that's interesting.

[00:33:05] Wow, that's great.

[00:33:06] And not too far to the west is the home of John Chapman, a.k.a. Johnny Appleseed, Lemonstermass.

[00:33:13] No kidding?

[00:33:14] Yeah.

[00:33:15] Wow.

[00:33:15] Wow.

[00:33:15] That's quite a history of apples right there.

[00:33:17] I think we are destined to answer this question.

[00:33:19] However, our crack research team has been busy with this question, and we're going to tackle it.

[00:33:26] Apple pie history with a top 10 list, top 10 items in apple pie history.

[00:33:31] What do you think?

[00:33:32] Are we ready to go?

[00:33:32] Ready to go.

[00:33:33] Okay.

[00:33:33] So number one point in apple pie history is that apple pie is a pie whose main ingredient is apples.

[00:33:43] That's good clarification.

[00:33:44] Well, we want to just make sure that that's clear to people.

[00:33:47] And, you know, just start from the bottom and work our way up.

[00:33:51] All right.

[00:33:52] The most popular food of choice for the last meal of inmates on death row is apple pie a la mode.

[00:33:59] Whoa, that's pretty awesome.

[00:34:03] So if you're heading out, you want some apple pie.

[00:34:08] Okay.

[00:34:09] Well, we don't really know why, but it's kind of dark and it's interesting.

[00:34:12] But, you know, getting to Jonathan's question, maybe a little bit more directly now, is number three on our list of apple pie history facts is that the first record of apple pie is in a 14th century recipe book by Jeffrey Chaucer.

[00:34:31] Where it was referred to as English pudding.

[00:34:34] And the filling consisted of apples, figs, pears, and raisins.

[00:34:40] And, you know, the recipe, interestingly, didn't call for any sugar.

[00:34:44] Because at the time, you know, 14th century, this is in Europe, right?

[00:34:49] Or England, probably?

[00:34:50] Chaucer.

[00:34:50] Where was it?

[00:34:51] England, yeah.

[00:34:52] England.

[00:34:52] Okay.

[00:34:52] That's the Canterbury Tales.

[00:34:53] Got it.

[00:34:54] Okay.

[00:34:55] And at that time, sugar cane had to be imported from Egypt and it was very expensive.

[00:35:00] So they kind of felt that, like, I probably, like, the pears would provide the sweetener for the pie.

[00:35:06] Yeah.

[00:35:06] And, you know, figs are actually a really sweet thing, too.

[00:35:10] You can use, like, figs and dates also.

[00:35:14] Yeah.

[00:35:14] As a sweetener.

[00:35:15] Yeah.

[00:35:15] Okay.

[00:35:16] So there you go.

[00:35:16] So maybe that's the first.

[00:35:17] So there you go.

[00:35:18] First record, Jonathan, of apple pie, 14th century.

[00:35:22] However, the first reference to apple pie in the U.S. was in the cookbook American Cookery, published by Amelia Simmons in 1796.

[00:35:33] 1796.

[00:35:34] Wow.

[00:35:35] Okay.

[00:35:35] So it kind of made its way over here to the U.S. by that point, I guess, huh?

[00:35:43] That seems late to me.

[00:35:44] Seems late, yeah.

[00:35:45] Yeah, you would.

[00:35:46] But maybe there's first reference in a cookbook.

[00:35:48] That's true.

[00:35:49] First cookbook.

[00:35:49] Yeah, so maybe they were making apple pies.

[00:35:51] However, you know, an interesting point that our research, our crack research team has brought to light here is that apples are actually native, or the cultivated apples that we're familiar with that we eat are native to Asia.

[00:36:07] And the cultivated apples were probably derived from the wild species Malus cyversii.

[00:36:15] Hmm.

[00:36:16] And, you know, right, we have a lot of different varieties of apples worldwide right now, right?

[00:36:21] So it definitely, and I got the feeling that apples are very easy to cultivate and to make different varieties for people that do that kind of thing.

[00:36:32] Yeah, well, my favorite, one of my favorite apple facts, which is not on our list, is that you can't grow, apples are not true to seed.

[00:36:43] So you can't plant an apple seed from a variety of apple and get that same apple back.

[00:36:50] So almost all apples that are grown are grown as grafts.

[00:36:55] So you can actually have more than one variety of apples growing on the same tree because you just have to graft the branch on that has the true fruit.

[00:37:08] No kidding.

[00:37:09] Mm-hmm.

[00:37:09] Wow, that's fascinating.

[00:37:10] So what do you actually get if you plant an apple seed?

[00:37:13] You will get something, you don't know what you're going to get, but it's probably most likely to be kind of more crab apple-y, kind of sour.

[00:37:20] Oh, like you won't get a grape or anything like that, but it will be some kind of apple.

[00:37:24] You'll get an apple, but it might not be very delicious.

[00:37:27] Yeah.

[00:37:28] Hmm.

[00:37:29] Very interesting.

[00:37:31] Early American colonists brought cultivated apples to America, but the early trees were unable to bear much fruit due to a lack of the European honeybee Apis mellifera.

[00:37:43] Introduction of the European honeybee to the Americas in 1622 allowed the introduced apple trees to flourish.

[00:37:50] Wow, that's fascinating.

[00:37:51] So they really needed the bees.

[00:37:53] Hmm.

[00:37:54] And that's a good message for us these days because, you know, we need to maintain our bees because they are super, you know, important for the crops like this to grow.

[00:38:05] Yeah.

[00:38:05] And I think that there were some, there was a native apple to the North America, right, with the crab apple, I believe, but not good for anything other than maybe making apple liquor or something like that.

[00:38:17] Well, you know, speaking of those European bees, a lot of those European bees escaped their beekeepers, and they created their own wild colonies throughout the U.S.

[00:38:26] and even into western U.S., long before settlers had the chance to explore the western U.S.

[00:38:32] But the bees were unable to cross the Rocky Mountains by themselves.

[00:38:37] And they had to be taken along when human settlers finally went across the Rockies

[00:38:42] and established settlements on the west coast of the U.S.

[00:38:45] That's pretty fascinating.

[00:38:46] They couldn't make it over the mountains.

[00:38:48] That makes sense, I guess.

[00:38:50] Those mountains are high.

[00:38:52] Yeah.

[00:38:52] Yeah, you wonder what they were riding on when they made it past,

[00:38:57] if they hitched a ride in someone's snack.

[00:39:00] Yeah, probably.

[00:39:01] Or maybe the settlers brought them.

[00:39:03] Brought them, yeah.

[00:39:05] And right now in the U.S., I know a lot of our apples come from Washington State, for example.

[00:39:10] So they definitely made it over there.

[00:39:14] Apple pie was further cemented in American history by a 1902 newspaper article

[00:39:20] that claimed, no pie-eating people can be permanently vanquished.

[00:39:26] So I would eat some pie if I were you.

[00:39:30] Keep eating that pie.

[00:39:32] You've got to love that.

[00:39:34] And, you know, maybe a follow-up to that.

[00:39:37] During World War II, when journalists asked American soldiers who were heading over to battle in World War II

[00:39:43] why they were going to war, the stock answer was for mom and apple pie.

[00:39:48] Aw, that's sweet.

[00:39:50] Maybe mom's apple pie, too.

[00:39:53] Probably, yeah.

[00:39:54] Yeah.

[00:39:55] American orchards produce over 220 million bushels of apples every year,

[00:40:02] second only to China, which produces roughly half of the world's apples.

[00:40:07] Wow.

[00:40:09] That's interesting.

[00:40:10] So China, it sounds like, is the big apple producer worldwide, globally.

[00:40:15] Yeah.

[00:40:16] Yeah.

[00:40:16] So I imagine that, you know, doing the math there,

[00:40:21] that pretty much all the apples in the world are produced by either America or China

[00:40:26] with a very small sliver of the percentage by everybody else.

[00:40:30] Yeah, yeah.

[00:40:31] And you do see some apples, I guess, even coming into the U.S. here these days from, like, New Zealand or areas like that.

[00:40:39] But, yeah, that's definitely the way it is.

[00:40:42] Japan, too, I think.

[00:40:44] Well, anyway, so that's what we have from our research, and we hope that helps to answer your question, Jonathan.

[00:40:50] Thank you for submitting that.

[00:40:51] And now, to take this a little bit further here on the Two Cat Kitchen, because we do offer a recipe with each episode,

[00:41:00] and today's episode is no exception.

[00:41:03] We have a recipe from Aria and Bryce for apple pie.

[00:41:08] And this week, the recipe can be found over at our YouTube channel.

[00:41:13] It's a video recipe.

[00:41:14] So we invite everybody to head on over to our channel at Two Cat Kitchen and check out the video amazing apple pie.

[00:41:40] That's all we have time for in this episode of the Two Cat Kitchen.

[00:41:44] We'd like to thank our special guest, Scott Doggett, for his insights into early rock and roll.

[00:41:50] And thanks to Aria and Bryce for their fantastic apple pie recipe.

[00:41:55] I'm Rick McKinney.

[00:41:56] And I'm Sarah Grady.

[00:41:57] We'll see you next time, right here on the Two Cat Kitchen.